Comments on: Disbelieving the Predestinarian God http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/ Nihil refert. Quocumque tendimus, erramus. Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:17:21 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: lee faber http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-275 lee faber Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:17:21 +0000 http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-275 Since someone asked about Scotus, I have begun to post some of his comments on the matter. Since someone asked about Scotus, I have begun to post some of his comments on the matter.

]]> By: evagrius http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-273 evagrius Sat, 05 Jan 2008 00:18:06 +0000 http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-273 "God Loves Himself the most" Hmmmm........ultimate egotism? I don't think so. The Trinity.....isn't ego, is it? Something wrong with that notion, "God loves Himself the most". “God Loves Himself the most”

Hmmmm……..ultimate egotism?

I don’t think so.

The Trinity…..isn’t ego, is it?

Something wrong with that notion, “God loves Himself the most”.

]]> By: ej http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-270 ej Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:20:49 +0000 http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-270 I have only recently (today) finished my own thoghts on this subject and they are in direct contrast to yours. I didn't deal with the loving nature of God, at least not as you articulate it, but a quick answer to that objeciton would be this: Who does God love the most? The answer is God. He loves Himself more than us because any affections are only ultimately good and righteous if they are placed in God. And God's love works hand in hand with his justice and judgment. God's love for God is so great that any rebellion against Him is worthy of eternal fire and damnation. Anyway, the bulk of my reasons why I believe that predestination is the doctrine of the Scriptures when it comes to salvation can be found by going to http://contendersbiblestudy.blogspot.com/2008/01/whosoever-will-and-gods-sovereignty-in.html I have only recently (today) finished my own thoghts on this subject and they are in direct contrast to yours. I didn’t deal with the loving nature of God, at least not as you articulate it, but a quick answer to that objeciton would be this: Who does God love the most? The answer is God. He loves Himself more than us because any affections are only ultimately good and righteous if they are placed in God. And God’s love works hand in hand with his justice and judgment. God’s love for God is so great that any rebellion against Him is worthy of eternal fire and damnation.

Anyway, the bulk of my reasons why I believe that predestination is the doctrine of the Scriptures when it comes to salvation can be found by going to http://contendersbiblestudy.blogspot.com/2008/01/whosoever-will-and-gods-sovereignty-in.html

]]> By: trust in desire « Flesh & Spirit http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-261 trust in desire « Flesh & Spirit Wed, 02 Jan 2008 04:50:53 +0000 http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-261 [...] I don’t believe God chooses an elect. There’s no need. Everything She created is trying to communicate with us. Those who don’t trust that communication, who don’t trust their own sensations and experiences as communication and communion, don’t really trust God. Or maybe, ironically, they trust men more. I do not fear the God who is Holy Trinity. I fear my own freedom to turn from this God, to hide myself in an impenetrable egotism and despair which will forever close me to the roar of his love. I fear that my self-will will ultimately triumph over my desire for the supreme and ultimate Good. I fear that I am becoming, have become, a person who declares to infinite Love, “My will, not thine, be done.” I fear also the purifying suffering that I must endure, both in this life and beyond, to free me from my bondage to self and the goods of this world. But I do not fear the God of Jesus Christ. (Disbelieving the Predestinarian God) [...] [...] I don’t believe God chooses an elect. There’s no need. Everything She created is trying to communicate with us. Those who don’t trust that communication, who don’t trust their own sensations and experiences as communication and communion, don’t really trust God. Or maybe, ironically, they trust men more. I do not fear the God who is Holy Trinity. I fear my own freedom to turn from this God, to hide myself in an impenetrable egotism and despair which will forever close me to the roar of his love. I fear that my self-will will ultimately triumph over my desire for the supreme and ultimate Good. I fear that I am becoming, have become, a person who declares to infinite Love, “My will, not thine, be done.” I fear also the purifying suffering that I must endure, both in this life and beyond, to free me from my bondage to self and the goods of this world. But I do not fear the God of Jesus Christ. (Disbelieving the Predestinarian God) [...]

]]> By: Mateo http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-260 Mateo Tue, 01 Jan 2008 22:26:38 +0000 http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-260 I appreciated your putting the very Catholic Dominican, Domingo Banez, into your list. Although at times I waver and am inclined to agree with your position against St. Augustine, it is important to note, as you have, that this issue is not really a Protestant-Catholic issue. Molinists like, well, Molina and Thomists like Banez (whether Thomas was one or not!) have been permitted to hold their mutually exclusive doctrinal positions without fear of condemnation as heretics. Calvin's position is only heretical (if he ever really held it) because he denied the compatibility of the very, very strong view of Providence held by Thomas and human free will, though most of Calvin's followers believed him to speak somewhat sloppily on this matter. For the Thomists, God's grace is infallible in its effect though it is not technically irresistible. God infallibly moves us in a way suitable to our nature, not like irrational animals or rocks. Nevertheless, humans, beasts, and rocks all do what God has infallibly decreed beyond all time. This is not what Molina or you believe and it is not enjoined upon Catholics, but it IS orthodox. And I believe that the fact of this position's orthodoxy could prove to be fruitful for ecumenical exploration. Don't you think? I appreciated your putting the very Catholic Dominican, Domingo Banez, into your list. Although at times I waver and am inclined to agree with your position against St. Augustine, it is important to note, as you have, that this issue is not really a Protestant-Catholic issue. Molinists like, well, Molina and Thomists like Banez (whether Thomas was one or not!) have been permitted to hold their mutually exclusive doctrinal positions without fear of condemnation as heretics. Calvin’s position is only heretical (if he ever really held it) because he denied the compatibility of the very, very strong view of Providence held by Thomas and human free will, though most of Calvin’s followers believed him to speak somewhat sloppily on this matter. For the Thomists, God’s grace is infallible in its effect though it is not technically irresistible. God infallibly moves us in a way suitable to our nature, not like irrational animals or rocks. Nevertheless, humans, beasts, and rocks all do what God has infallibly decreed beyond all time. This is not what Molina or you believe and it is not enjoined upon Catholics, but it IS orthodox. And I believe that the fact of this position’s orthodoxy could prove to be fruitful for ecumenical exploration. Don’t you think?

]]> By: Perry Robinson http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-259 Perry Robinson Sun, 30 Dec 2007 17:32:45 +0000 http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-259 Pastor Chad, Synergy doesn't require that it be an all or nothing deal. It also requires a change in one's view of human nature and the imago dei. THe Calvinistic move is to first create ADam with nature as grace and then in order to stave off works righteousness at the fall it has to completely remove any positive power or value from human nature. This is why Calvinist anthropology isn't Augustinian anthropology. Since Augustine thinks that grace is added to nature, implying that nature is still intrinsically good. Pastor Chad,

Synergy doesn’t require that it be an all or nothing deal. It also requires a change in one’s view of human nature and the imago dei. THe Calvinistic move is to first create ADam with nature as grace and then in order to stave off works righteousness at the fall it has to completely remove any positive power or value from human nature. This is why Calvinist anthropology isn’t Augustinian anthropology. Since Augustine thinks that grace is added to nature, implying that nature is still intrinsically good.

]]> By: Luke http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-258 Luke Sun, 30 Dec 2007 06:10:22 +0000 http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-258 > I appreciate your thoughts and struggles with this doctrine. It > is something that I have often struggled with. Yet it is also > one to which I cannot claim I know one way or the other. The > reason that I am scared to go the direction you have gone; to > take the ultimate responsibility of our salvation out of God’s > hands and to put it in ours by removing the doctrine of > predestination, is that I am not strong enough to hold onto that > salvation. Pastor Chad: If you're right to be afraid, and God has not chosen you, does it matter? It doesn't matter! Blessed Nativity, luke > I appreciate your thoughts and struggles with this doctrine. It
> is something that I have often struggled with. Yet it is also
> one to which I cannot claim I know one way or the other. The
> reason that I am scared to go the direction you have gone; to
> take the ultimate responsibility of our salvation out of God’s
> hands and to put it in ours by removing the doctrine of
> predestination, is that I am not strong enough to hold onto that
> salvation.

Pastor Chad: If you’re right to be afraid, and God has not chosen you, does it matter? It doesn’t matter!

Blessed Nativity,
luke

]]> By: evagrius http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-257 evagrius Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:33:13 +0000 http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-257 I've never read a personal "assualt" into anything. And I stand by my remark. Cyrill could have changed history had he had a more irenic tone, one that still insisted on the truth but with less venom....but that's perhaps his great fault. I’ve never read a personal “assualt” into anything.

And I stand by my remark. Cyrill could have changed history had he had a more irenic tone, one that still insisted on the truth but with less venom….but that’s perhaps his great fault.

]]> By: Perry Robinson http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-256 Perry Robinson Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:55:41 +0000 http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-256 Evagrius, Virulent? I think you read into the criticisms of ideas a personal assualt that just isn't there. Irenecism is hardly the mark of truth. Read some Saint Cyril for instance. In any case, your comments essentially dismiss the problem since they deal with perceived attitudes rather than engage the arguments and so seem to miss the mark. Evagrius,

Virulent? I think you read into the criticisms of ideas a personal assualt that just isn’t there. Irenecism is hardly the mark of truth. Read some Saint Cyril for instance. In any case, your comments essentially dismiss the problem since they deal with perceived attitudes rather than engage the arguments and so seem to miss the mark.

]]> By: evagrius http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-255 evagrius Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:24:32 +0000 http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/disbelieving-the-predestinarian-god/#comment-255 Ol' Energetic Procession's having a right bee in his bonnet regarding this post. I'm surprised, but not much, at how virulent the comments there are. And I'm not surprised at how irenic the comments are here. Ol’ Energetic Procession’s having a right bee in his bonnet regarding this post.
I’m surprised, but not much, at how virulent the comments there are.
And I’m not surprised at how irenic the comments are here.

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